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The turn
526
313
7 months ago
I see just by reading blog and forum comments here that this is not just a fun site to be on but a GREAT ONE! I think it's pretty obvious we all want to get better and have more peers to relate with. All of these things are exceptional in becoming a better player. So now that my boot licking is done I would like to share something I've used that has helped my value bet to be more secure or in the event of NOT calling somebody elses on the river.

When betting the flop or (check raising depending on position) with top pair you need to really try and range somebody for calling or playing back at you. Things like how does this player normally act, how many hands do they play, do they bet come hands or do they like to dance on air? Between the action of the flop betting and the turn card falling try to get 2 types in your head. (this is where being honest is the difference between profit and break even play)

So here is the TURN all of the information you have now should be used to either play to the river or get out quick before your house burns to the ground...

1)If I have position and a player has checked to me with me holding top pair and reasonable kicker I check here... Don't worry payday is on fri... Then I %50-%80 the river depending on how tight-loose the opponent is. If you do bet the turn and opponent has second pair a lot of times they fold rather than call 3 bets with second pair so the only way to extract more is on the river.

2) you've made your read and the worst card in the entire deck fell out action to you: CHECK/FOLD it's ok to say it and for some it's a lot harder to do... Thank yourself for getting better and still having a pile in front of you. Your now ready to pick another spot.

3) let's say your in fear of being flushed or a str8. turn is an X with action to you. You have got to decide whether or not this player is the "too dumb to fold" variety or the person who is "in fear of getting broke". The dumb guy will probably bluff missing the river anyway but you still stand getting crushed by a flush if they hit the river. I tend to bet the pot against somebody who seems resonable to fold the "too dumb to fold" I get 5bb and 5bb is GOOD value take it! If they miss the river and bet out use some caution (again READ THE TYPE) before you reraise for value you may have misread a trapping play. *The river and they got there with a flush*. STOP CALLING THE FLUSH YOU DEFENDED AGAINST! I repeat STOP CALLING IT! I see it and have done it myself. When you KNOW the player has you beat and you call is they easiest way to continue as a break even player.

My point here is the TURN card really dictates the how the hands are stacking up and the type of player who is in the pot. (GREAT SPOT TO WATCH AND LEARN! player types, little tricks, all sorts of things on hands your not in) Be carefull with top pair, true it's most of your winning hands, it can also make you look like your a jar of free coins waiting to be stolen from and if you think there are 3 or more good players at your table that's the last thing you need. Obviously, I didn't take into account if you improve or if you get shoved on and those types of thing will happen also. When they do it's going to be about reading, rolling & raking in those spots and they are so unique it will be a table time decision to make. Personaly I play about %70 of my "top pair on the flop" hands like this and I feel a lot more confident playing the other types of hands every sense I've locked down how to play %70 of my winners through the river. Hope it helps you wear out the felt in front of you GLatT!
27
7 months ago
Yes, Yes, Yes. Very nice post, although Im not too crazy about you making all these donks around here better haha. One of the biggest leaks people have is calling too much on the turn. Also, you should plan your flop action preflop, and your turn/river actions based on your opponents flop action. I hate hearing people talk about reads and what not after their opponent makes a move, thats reactionary, losing poker.
131
7 months ago
"If I have position and a player has checked to me with me holding top pair and reasonable kicker I check here..."

Nope, I don't really find that to be a profitable play. Betting will provide you with more info, it also builds larger pots & you're not allowing the player(s) to see another "free card". Thank you for the post though, it is informative and well-though out.
526
313
7 months ago
MELODYME (#3) wrote: "If I have position and a player has checked to me with me holding top pair and reasonable kicker I check here..."

Nope, I don't really find that to be a profitable play. Betting will provide you with more info, it also builds larger pots & you're not allowing the player(s) to see another "free card". Thank you for the post though, it is informative and well-though out.
Three reasons why I choose to check here are 1) It causes a lot of second best hands to fold. So no called value bet on the river. 2) If I'm being trapped with bottom set, two pair, over pair I'm not betting into a bad pot. 3) I play a ton of drawing hands so more often than not I need to improve. This disguises my drawing hands vs. hitting hands. I agree betting the turn and taking a pot if a street is dangerous. or if you have the calling station in a hand sure drag them through the mud and 3 bet them. As much as I agree 'more is to learn on the turn card' I think my opponent checking to me for a second time speaks volumes. Believe me this is not an absolute method for top pair. I mentioned this is 70%-80% of 'top pair' hands so maybe 60% approx. of the hands I'm betting. My focus is to GET A CALL on the river for value. If you have more information on three betting top pair I am very interested in reading it. Always ready for more value in a hand. Thanks for reading.

P.S. I enjoyed your MTT's blog post. Good words to keep everybody "practicing what they preech"
898
2
7 months ago
MELODYME (#3) wrote: "If I have position and a player has checked to me with me holding top pair and reasonable kicker I check here..."

Nope, I don't really find that to be a profitable play. Betting will provide you with more info, it also builds larger pots & you're not allowing the player(s) to see another "free card". Thank you for the post though, it is informative and well-though out.
+1

If you have position and you check it back on the turn, he is going to, in all likelyhood, fire at the river. And you have no idea where you are. Also, if he checks the river, allowing you to bet, betting 70-80% is far too much, as you will induce a fold by all hands that you beat, and only get called, or even raised, by better hands. So I think this is a flawed approach.

What I tend to do is go ahead and fire a second barrel on the turn, and if he checks again on the river, I bet more like 40% of the pot for value, and so I can get away from it if there is a shove. If he calls you and then leads out on the river, you are probably beat and should let go of your top pair
Edited by curtinsea 7 months ago
131
7 months ago
curtinsea (#5) wrote:
MELODYME (#3) wrote: "If I have position and a player has checked to me with me holding top pair and reasonable kicker I check here..."

Nope, I don't really find that to be a profitable play. Betting will provide you with more info, it also builds larger pots & you're not allowing the player(s) to see another "free card". Thank you for the post though, it is informative and well-though out.
+1

If you have position and you check it back on the turn, he is going to, in all likelyhood, fire at the river. And you have no idea where you are. Also, if he checks the river, allowing you to bet, betting 70-80% is far too much, as you will induce a fold by all hands that you beat, and only get called, or even raised, by better hands. So I think this is a flawed approach.

What I tend to do is go ahead and fire a second barrel on the turn, and if he checks again on the river, I bet more like 40% of the pot for value, and so I can get away from it if there is a shove. If he calls you and then leads out on the river, you are probably beat and should let go of your top pair
Well said curtinsea: and this is exactly why you do not check the turn. Info is key. I Also 40% for value on the riv.
131
7 months ago
@Britt1974 I'm glad you enjoyed my blog. It was one that I had written about a year ago on another poker forum & I've just re-posted it here. GL & cya on those felts.

This thread has been closed for new replies since it was either first created over 3 weeks ago or the last reply was posted more than 5 days ago.
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